Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: You're listening to the Doc Lounge Podcast. This is a place for candid conversations with the healthcare industry's top physicians, executives, and thought leaders.
This podcast is made possible by Pacific Companies, your trusted advisor in physician recruitment.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Hello, everyone. I'm Stacey Doyle, senior director of marketing at Pacific Companies and your host here on the Jock Lounge podcast. Welcome back to our provider's Perspective series where we spotlight the journeys, challenges, and wisdoms of physicians from across the country.
Today's guest is someone who truly embodies resilience, compassion, and the power of purpose in medicine. I'm thrilled to welcome Dr. Emma Jones, a practicing hospice and palliative care physician who has also served as a pediatric oncologist and general pediatrician. With over a decade of experience mentoring Residents and fellows, Dr. Jones has become a powerful guide and and uplifter for healthcare professionals navigating the turbulence of the modern medical system.
In her debut book, the Phoenix Blueprint, she shares the practices and tools that helped her rise from burnout and rediscover her calling. Blending inspiration from yoga with practical steps for transformation, her message is clear. You can emerge stronger and you're not alone. Dr. Jones lives in the Boston area with her physician husband and their two teenage daughters. And she's on a mission to be a lighthouse of hope for her patients, her colleagues, and now for all of us.
So, Dr. Jones, welcome so much to the show. We're so glad to have you here.
[00:01:34] Speaker C: Thank you so much. What a lovely introduction. I'm so happy to be here.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: Well, we are definitely honored and we can't wait to learn a little bit more about you and obviously this amazing book that you've written. So let's start at the beginning. What inspired you to become a physician? And how did you pick your specialty?
[00:01:56] Speaker C: Oh, wow, you're really going back.
Thank you. Sometimes we forget that part of the story. We got here somehow.
My journey to becoming a physician started very early. I am one of those people that cannot remember a time when this wasn't what I wanted to do. So I don't really have an origin story in that way.
However, I have plenty of the rest of the story, right? So I got on the straight and narrow path pretty early, like before college, Right. And then one thing about medical training, anybody who's been through it is that it's very prescribed, right? There's pre med. Get your MCAT scores, get your gpa, get into med school, do the med school thing, get the good residency, perform well in residency, get the good fellowship, get the good attending job. There's all of this very prescribed track. So I was in that. I mean, and that's kind of my story for most of it. Pretty boring story. I just did all the steps that you're supposed to do to get to your goal of being a doctor.
And I think that's actually part of the problem. And the way that I see things now, after being through going through the looking glass and having this transformation of having a burnout, I think about that a lot differently. But that was kind of my story and the way that I chose my specialties.
I would say that I loved everything when I was in medical school. Probably not unfamiliar story to most people. It's all very exciting. You're finally getting to do the thing that you've wanted to do for so long and everything's exciting and new. I definitely took a bit of an intuitive decision approach, like, which group of people did I feel the most like, and who did I want to hang around the most?
And that was definitely the pediatricians more so than the surgeons. So that was kind of my first sorting, kind of like a little Harry Potter moment, you know, like, which house do you go in?
And then once you kind of get that level of sorting, then the refining sort of comes.
For me, I really love longitudinal relationships with patients and also like deep work.
So HEMOC really kind of married both of those things where you did see people over time. General peds. Right. You see patients over time, but most of the patients are. Well, oncology was both a longitudinal relationship and a deep relationship. So that was a great fit for me.
And then of course, I took that to an extra level and took it to palliative care. So we got even kind of deeper in to the emotional and connection with families. And I loved it. I loved every minute of it. And I let it become my identity and it totally consumed me and then it totally ate me alive.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: Well, I think that's a normal story. We've heard that before.
So obviously, you know, for fellow physicians that are palliative care hospice, what would you. Is there any kind of tips that you'd recommend or were there certain kind of flags that you said? Okay, now I feel like this is becoming too. To all consuming.
[00:05:03] Speaker C: Yeah. So I definitely have a frame. You know, burnout is kind of a word that you either. I mean, I don't think anybody loves it. I was going to say you either love it or you hate it. I don't think anybody loves it, but you either identify with it or you're kind of like, no, that's the Wrong word. I don't like that word. To me, burnout is the signal. Burnout's like, hey, something's wrong here. We need to kind of have a course correct.
So when I'm thinking about, you know, my journey as a physician with the lens of like, when were the smoke signals of burnout going up really early. And I missed them completely. I mean, second year of med school, I was completely burned out just from the pace of work and the pressure of it all, you know, to perform, get the good grades, kind of being in that rigid track for by that point already eight years. Right. Like, if you think about, I was on the gotta be a doctor track from the beginning of high school.
So that missed that one, you know, that there was a little smoke signal to say maybe the way you're approaching this needs a rethink. Not the goal itself, but just the approach.
Same thing. Once I took my. Well, I mean, my HEMOC fellowship is extremely hard. It's one of the most strenuous fellowship programs.
I won't tell tales on anybody, but my duty hour sheet was letter of the law. May not have been truthful, but that's a time where I just felt exhausted and probably there was some hands going up then. Right again, missed them blow past those first years of working, getting to do things kind of the way that I wanted to for the very first time.
Took the foot off the gas a little bit, so. So I mean, that's the really sneaky place where you can miss the smoke signals is where things feel a little bit better. Right. When you get out of that training environment, you're not working 120 hours a week anymore. You're not under the watchful gaze of attendings all the time. And you're like, ah, but you don't really feel good. You're still kind of doing all the same messed up behaviors. You just got a little bit of breathing room. That's a sneaky recovery.
And then I just got. And then I just really from there just kind of like kept going, you know, bought into this lie that the more enmeshed with my patients I was, the better doctor I was.
And then that is what took me onto the huge crash, which happened about 10 years into my post fellowship life. So I think one of the things that I now reflect is really remarkable about my story is that it wasn't like everything was actually fine. And then there was this one event and that led to a crash. It's like the slow burn.
And I think that's. I mean, I see I see that is the way it is for most physicians and probably everybody in healthcare. But physicians are the people I talk to the most.
[00:08:02] Speaker B: That makes sense. It's something you're kind of experiencing. It's on a daily and then it's slowly building up and you're not really realizing how much it's infiltrated, you know, your day to day.
[00:08:14] Speaker C: Right.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: So what are, I mean, what are some of the things that you would potentially, you know, flag if, you know, physicians are feeling X to say, hey, maybe you need to reevaluate and kind of just, you know, take a look at what's going on?
[00:08:31] Speaker C: Yeah. What are some of those red flag smoke signals? That's great. That's a great question.
Some of the things, you know, that it shows up outside of the clinic, at home, you're more reactionary, you're more irritable with your family, you have less patients. You know, I think a lot of times our families give us a lot of grace, probably more than we deserve. But you know, they say, oh, mom works hard and she's dedicated to her patients. Of course when she comes home, she's going to be a little tired and cranky, but like, is that really the life you want to like, always be tired and cranky with your own family? So I think looking at on the weekends after hours, are you really still always kind of in that cranky, can't get out of it mode? That's a big red flag that I see from a lot of people dreading work, you know, Sunday scaries, or like, I don't want to go to work or I pull in the parking lot and I get that like, ick feeling in my throat or whatever. However that shows up in your body, that's a huge one. If you don't want to go to work, woo, we got a big problem. That's like a big flag.
Using your body is another big technique that I teach a lot of my clients when people work with me. There's so much wisdom in our bodies and as physicians, we love to like stay up here in our heads and outsmart ourselves and story, story, story, story, story. But if you just listen to what's going on in your body, like if you're feeling tightness in your chest, if you're feeling that knot in your stomach, if you're feeling like your legs are heavy, that's really important information. And especially if that's happening when you pull in the parking lot at the hospital, that's a really important signal.
Other ones that show up are Kind of disdain for patients. So, you know, I think this happened to me and it was really scary and unsettling when I was like mad at children with cancer for being in front of me and needing care. Right. That's a pretty stark red flag when you have that kind of degree of cynicism about your work that you're kind of mad at the patients.
That can show up in a lot subtler ways, but it's something to look for.
And then this just this kind of sense of like there's no point to this, like this is all just some kind of a machine and I'm stuck in it and I don't even know what the purpose of this medicine is anymore. If you have that kind of feeling, that's a real red flag that your relationship with your work is off and we need to sort of renegotiate so that you can feel engaged and fulfilled and invigorated by your work.
[00:11:06] Speaker B: I'm assuming a lot of, you know, obviously hospice and palliative care like that is a deep emotional investment.
So do you think that a lot of your burnout came from. From that? And is there a way that you feel, you know, is there a way to kind of almost compartmentalize those two things when you said you were getting too involved and too attached with your patients?
[00:11:30] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a really important point. And I think a subtle distinction that I try to make is that it's not emotional engagement with the work itself. It's sort of the lack of boundarying and healthy separation. So we don't want to become robotic, we don't want to become uncaring or unfeeling robots.
That's not the goal, that's a myth. I think there's a lot in our training that sort of says that's a good doctor is a person who doesn't have emotions.
But that's also its own problem.
That wasn't necessarily my version of it. I thought it was good to have emotions. I thought it was good to mirror all of your patients emotions. And I'm actually very talented at that. That's one of the talents that I have is naturally empathic. You feel something, I'm feeling it too.
And the thing that I didn't have was the skill to make that temporary. Right. It's really good when we're in the room together for me to feel some of what you're feeling so that I know where you are. I can support you, I can meet you where you are, I can companion you in your grief or Your confusion or whatever feeling that you're feeling, that's a really helpful clinical skill, especially in the work that I do. The problem is you got to get out of there. Can't stay in there.
And that's the piece that we are not trained to do in medical training or residency or really anywhere along the traditional pathway. And that was a core thing that was missing that led me into burnout. If you can imagine, you sustain multiple serious losses and experience multiple serious grief events on an almost daily basis, and then never have a time, don't have any break, right? When people have major losses in their life, we tend to give them space to grieve.
When my patient's spouse died, you know, when my patients died, their spouse takes a week or two or three or ten off of work.
Certainly if you have a child die, we're going to expect that that parent's going to need some space to grieve. But we really don't create any space for ourselves to deal with that.
And so I think the solution to that is twofold. One, we need to be engaged with it less. Right? There needs to be this separation. Like, their pain is different than my pain. I have some, but I don't have the same amount.
That's one skill I had to learn. And then the other is there has to be space for renewal and healing.
And that if we pretend like it doesn't hurt us, then we never acknowledge that we need to heal. And so I was caught in that loop where I was like, give it all to me. I will feel everything that you feel, but it's no big deal. I got it.
Like, that's a really bad combination. And I think that's how we're trained to operate, unfortunately.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: Well, I can see how, yeah, if you're an empath and that's just kind of, you're naturally going to go that way. And that is so much to take on. So this brings us to a great transition about your book, the Phoenix Blueprint. I mean, obviously it's really powerful and personal. Just the title itself. So tell us, what is the image of the Phoenix rising from the ashes? What does that mean to you in the context of healthcare? And why did you write the book?
[00:15:00] Speaker C: Well, you know, I am a little dramatic, so I had to kind of go with something dramatic. The stories in my head are all very Broadway or like, you know, wings of Fire imagery. People told me when they see the COVID of my book, it looks like fairy porn. I was like, well, if it gets people to buy it, I don't really care.
They'll be very surprised when they get into it. But anyway, that just need for drama aside, the Phoenix imagery really, to me was so perfect because the fire is very real. Like, the healthcare system itself feels like we're living in a fire. Nothing is functional. I mean, it's not hard to. I mean, dumpster fire is used very regularly when people are talking about our current healthcare environment.
So, you know, this idea of living in a fire. And what kind of person chooses to live in a fire and go into a fire willingly?
Firefighters and phoenixes, right? So these were the two images that I worked with. As I got more into it, the phoenix really emerged as the sort of predominant archetype that made sense to me. There's a little bit of firefighter methodology in there too, because I think that trying to stave off the fire or stop the fire is actually an important part of how we're going to heal the system. But one of my beliefs is that although this is absolute systems issue, people make up the system, right? The system is made up of people. And so if I can heal the people, then I can heal the system. And so the Phoenix imagery, developing your Phoenix mindset is kind of how I would say the goal of becoming a different kind of person. A person who has a different relationship to this work, who willingly goes into fire. But not like, either, because I don't get burned, because that's just not true. And that's probably the default belief that everybody has now. It's like, I can walk into this fire because, like, it doesn't burn me, because I'm some kind of special non human something that doesn't experience the fire in the same way other human beings do.
Or that it's okay that, like, me being burned to the ground is actually part of the game too.
That's my job. This is a calling. Self sacrifice is part of it. And so going in and say, if you could imagine, right, every day you go to work, you get singed 1% that over time you're just fully incinerated. And that's just what it is to be a doctor.
So neither of those are acceptable. I was like, these are the two prevailing beliefs and I can't have either one of those. I need to have this other way, which is, yeah, walk into the fire. And it actually, like, I know what to do with it. I can dance with it. I can, like, use it to make me better.
So that's sort of one part of it. And then this, this cycle of renewal is another really Important part of the imagery that we are meant to be cyclical. You know, we follow nature. This is a mythic story of renewal and that transformation comes through destruction. Right. Like whatever, pick your imagery. We're working with fire, the phoenix. That phoenix needs to be burned to the ground and then it rises from the ashes. If it doesn't allow itself to be burned, it can't change.
I use a lot of nature imagery as well, like seeds. The seed has to be destroyed in order for the tree to grow. Right. So just this acceptance that we have to sort of let old things go in order for new things to come is another really important part of the metaphor.
And then I tell stories in the book that highlight that in the clinical context. Because I realized that I just went off on this really weird, dramatic, metaphorical discussion and a lot of people can't connect with that. If you're like a drama person, like I am, you'll love it.
But if you're a more clinical person, the book is filled with examples of. Oh, and here's how this shows up in real world situations from either me or my clients or people that I've worked with in the hospital.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Sounds like a powerful book with lots of great. Yeah, like you're saying real, real life. And then you're using that really strong metaphor to bring home kind of the key messaging that you want the, you know, the audience to take away. Now tell me a little bit about. I know that you talked about, you know, resilience, you talked about renewal.
I know there's some practical tips in the book about blending yoga mindfulness practices. What are some tips that you would, if you were high level, pull out of the book that you'd want to share with physicians Listening right now.
[00:19:47] Speaker C: Thanks.
Yes, there's lots of practical advice in there. I have kind of mapped out the six step path that I walked on my own recovery.
And as a quick tip, place to start, the first step is rest. This is absolutely the first one because A, it's the most important, it's also the hardest and the simplest. Right? Just stop, just stop. Just do less. Take some days off, actually take a weekend, actually go to sleep. You know, just rest.
That is absolutely the first step.
And that you might have to stay on step one for a really long time before you're ready to get on to other steps, such as self inquiry, boundary setting, learning new ways of communicating, building up communities.
These are kind of the stages for me. But rest for me came unwillingly, involuntarily. I guess this is the story that starts the book, so I don't mind sharing. I got sent home involuntarily.
You are too fried. Get out of here.
Six week mandatory leave. Thankfully, the medical board didn't get involved or anything like that. But it was devastating to get pulled off of work involuntarily due to unprofessional behavior.
That was absolutely a result of my burnout fried state.
But it led me to rest. You know, I was in the bed for like 18 hours a day because I was absolutely depressed and despondent. But I think that's really what my body needed was that degree of rest.
And then of course, that's when I started practicing yoga. I say I started practicing yoga out of spite because my thought in my mind was like, well, if I can't go to work, what am I supposed to do? Go to yoga.
But it worked. It did its thing, whether you believe in it or not.
That's kind of the thing about some of these technologies. They work whether you believe in them or not.
And so I do. I have become very a student of yoga and a big believer in the philosophies of yoga, and that underpins a lot of what I teach. But the thing that I will say about yoga as this quick tip here is that if you don't like yoga, don't do yoga. Yoga is not a quick fix. It's not like one yoga class and your burnout is going to be gone. And I know that the way a lot of hospital wellness offices pitch, it makes everybody really aggravated. And I agree that, because that's not what it is all about.
So I think there's a lot of ways to rest. There's a lot of ways to restore. There's a lot of ways to understand yourself better and get out of your head and into your body. And there's a lot of ways to develop better communication systems.
Yoga sort of has a system for all of them. So I'll just throw that out. If you are a student of yoga, maybe get a little bit more into it beyond the physical posture that you do. If you're in a more athletic yoga class, you know, really be curious about some of the more philosophical elements.
But I don't, I don't really. I wouldn't really say that I want. I don't want anybody to hear yoga is the cure to burnout, because I don't believe that that's true.
I teach from that tradition, mainly from a philosophical side. But the tip for today is rest. Like, just find a way to do less and if you need ideas, you can reach out to me and we'll come up with ideas. If it feels overwhelming to just do less, it's going to feel terrible at first. Your mind is going to say, what the heck are you doing? Do something. Why are you just sitting here?
But what I know, because the other way that I got this was if you don't, the universe is going to give it to you. So if you won't sit down willingly, then something's going to happen that's going to force you to. And I then develop medical issues where I had to rest again, again involuntarily. Right.
And so I think we get so frustrated when that happens to us. Whether we get an, like get a bad flu or we get injured in some way, or, you know, maybe it's as dramatic as it was for me that you get kicked, excuse me, kicked out of work.
But if you can, I mean, I'm going to say something that's impossible, but appreciate the rest. Appreciate the gift of rest. That really is the first step on the path.
The other thing that I imagine may be pertinent to your audience is if you are feeling really stuck and thinking that a big change is the way to solve your problem, that may be the case, but it also may not. And I would definitely say rest first.
Find a way to rest. Take a break, take a week of vacation, take two weeks, take a month off. But before we make any big decisions, rest yourself and then think about what the right choice is. You may have a nugget, you know, maybe leaving your job, maybe moving, maybe leaving the country. I don't know, whatever it is you think is the solution might be the solution, but it also might just be your reactive, underslept brain sending off misfires. And that's not a great place to make decisions from. So try to get into a grounded state before you make any big decisions.
[00:25:15] Speaker B: Amazing advice because we hear all the time physicians saying, you know, I feel disconnected from my original purpose of the reason I got into medicine. So I think what you're saying is really having that balance of, you know, obviously like you're saying rest, taking care of yourself allows you to then really practice at that full potential and why you originally got into it. But it's so hard once you get into the day to day and like you're saying you want to be the best doctor. And I know most doctors obviously are high performing, ultra achievers. So it just kind of goes hand in hand. So that's, I think that's amazing advice and I think your book sounds like it has real practical, you know, ways for people to implement this in their, in their lives.
One of the things I loved about is you talk about being, becoming a lighthouse for others.
What does this look like for you in your daily life at work, at home?
[00:26:12] Speaker C: Thank you.
The concept of lighthouse was something that I didn't invent it, but I adopted it both to remind me to take care of myself and then also to contextualize the presence of as an important piece of the work. Right. So first of all, lighthouse has to be cared for in order to be bright and shiny, Right?
So that implies, or that created a story in which my own self care, taking good care of my mind and body and spirit was actually an essential component to me caring for other people.
It wasn't either or it wasn't a trade off. It was like this, this leads into this. Right? So that was a real reframe flip that allowed me to take care of myself in a way that I never had before. So that's one part of the lighthouse and then the other light part of the lighthouse that I feel like is so important is that my worth is no longer measured by how much doing I do. You know, some days just showing up bright and shiny and making the other people in the clinic or the hospice house or the coffee shop or wherever it is that I went that day, giving those people some good energy is an act of service in and of itself. And so it got me out of attachment to, did I see enough patients? Did I have enough breakthroughs with people? Did I get people their right goals? Whatever it is. For me now as a hospice doctor, a lot of my role is quite like behind the scenes administrative work. And so it could be that that was very like, there's a cynicism around it, like, oh, all I do is do paperwork all day and who cares about this? This is a terrible job.
But through this lighthouse imagery, as well as some really good practices around kind of connecting the dots and seeing how you're part of a larger system.
But at least for the lighthouse, if all I did was show up and help other people to feel more empowered to do their work just by my presence, that was good.
That was good. And that the way that I do that is by keeping myself bright and shiny, that's kind of the concept of the lighthouse. And I think really powerful. And part of why I wrote the book is that I also know that just telling people to rest without telling them what to do when they're resting, which I think sounds Like a really strange concept, but for doctors it will make sense, right? Like it's kind of like, but what do I do on vacation or what do I do on the weekend? We got to be doing something.
So I get that. I get that. And I'm not going to take you too far all in one step, right? We're not going to go to, oh, just sit quietly and clear your mind. That's too big of a step.
Do these other things instead, right? Do activities that align with identities that have nothing to do with being a doctor. Do activities that more like nervous system down regulating. Do activities that are curiosity provoking or stimulating your mind in a healthy curiosity. So it's not that I don't want you to do nothing, because I know that would be impossible. It's not that doing nothing's bad, but I just know that's too far for most doctors to go and that focusing on charging up your lighthouse is a great job to give people. Right. Like your job is to charge yourself up. And how do you do that? Exercise, eat right, get sleep.
This, this imagery really works for people in my experience.
[00:29:57] Speaker B: I love that concept. That, that's amazing. So I'm going to start thinking about that all the time now. So thank you.
[00:30:04] Speaker C: Charge yourself up.
[00:30:06] Speaker B: Thank you for sharing that. I think that's. That's amazing.
I would love to hear. You know, as we wrap up here, you have obviously mentored a lot of physicians.
Tell us really how you think that that is helping, you know, kind of the ecosystem and just kind of in this modern medical landscape, what you think the value of mentorship is amongst physicians?
[00:30:32] Speaker C: Yes, I think mentorship is incredibly important.
Communities that are safe and the words that we put around that may vary, but creating communities in which people can live in this new way and have it modeled for them and have it celebrated. Celebration is a huge thing that I believe in, is so good for our brains, but very countercultural. Like in most medical settings, we never celebrate anything.
So having a community, whether that's one person that you work with as a mentor, whether that's somebody you hire as a coach or as a therapist, whether that's a community that you join as just kind of like people who get it, there could be lots of ways that you find this safe space, but that basically somebody who's not going to like squash your dream before it can get grown is really important. And then people who have been there before you kind of human vision boards who you can say, oh, this person's really living the life that I envision. And maybe not in specific. Like, it's not like how many kids I have and where you want to live, but, like, she's doing the stuff she wants to do, and she seems happy and she's energetic and, like, those types of things that you can look at.
And that as we're starting to create some of those spaces, and they do exist, we're still in the really nascent stages of this revolution.
But as you see it, this kind of lighthouse concept, right, one person can light up 10 or 20 people around them. Every time I work at the hospice house, there's kind of three of us that are in rotation.
Every time I'm there, people like, I'm so glad you're here. Every day just feels better when you're here. Things just go more smoothly when you're here. And I know that that's not me. That's not about me specifically. That's not my ego. Like, I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm so great. That's just like, yeah, bring this lightness. And other people feel light, and then they can feel like a better version of themselves when I kind of uplift them. So imagine if we could. If, say, all of us can touch 10 people, well, then, you know, it can just start to ripple and ripple and ripple.
But we gotta practice, too. You know, it's like we need more people. We need to get critical mass. And then we also need to make it safer for people to carry these skills out into the real world.
Because right now, I think people feel safe when they're in the little bubble, but then when they go out into the clinic, where all the existing cultural forces are still there, it's like they kind of lose it. And that's natural. That's normal. Because how the skill needed to maintain something in a challenge is different than the skill needed to maintain something in a practice environment.
I'm very hopeful that as we get more and more and more people converted to this Phoenix mindset or humanistic way of approaching medicine, we're going to start to see better and better medical culture.
[00:33:39] Speaker B: Thank you for sharing that. I want to give you the opportunity to tell our audience how they can get in touch with you, work with you, and then obviously how they can get a hold of your book, the Phoenix Blueprint.
[00:33:53] Speaker C: Great. Thank you. Anyone who is interested to learn more about working with me or whatever I'm offering, just start at my website. That's the best place to start. Emmajonesmd.com and we'll link out to the book page any current programming or how you can work with me as a, as a coach.
So, and right now I'm taking, I've got kind of a little bit, all of that.
But this is one thing about the life that I lead right now is I get to do what I want to do. And so sometimes it changes, and that's okay because that's the way I've made my life. So just start at the website and you'll find out what's current.
[00:34:31] Speaker B: Thank you so much. Great resource. I'm sure everyone will be checking that out. And that sounds, it sounds fun. It sounds like you're doing all the things that you're passionate about, practicing medicine and then helping other physicians battle with what you went, went through and you came out on the other side and now are living such, such a wonderful life. So thanks again, Dr. Jones, for your time. We really appreciate your time and insights here.
[00:34:56] Speaker C: Thank you. It's been fun to talk to you. Take care.
[00:35:00] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:35:01] Speaker A: Thank you to all of our listeners. If you would like to be notified when new episodes air, make sure to hit that subscribe button. And a big thank you to Pacific Companies. Without you guys, this podcast would not be possible.
If you would like to be a guest, Please go to www.pacificcompanies.com. thank.
[00:35:27] Speaker C: You.
