Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: You're listening to the Doc Lounge podcast. This is a place for candid conversations with the healthcare industry's top physicians, executives, and thought leaders.
This podcast is made possible by Pacific companies, your trusted advisor and physician recruitment.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Hello and welcome to the Doc Lounge podcast's provider's perspective series. I'm Stacey Doyle, the senior director of marketing at Pacific Companies. And today we're joined by Doctor Ben Ranking. Doctor Ranking is a board certified general pediatrician and pediatric cardiologist and the founder of the Developing Doctor, a coaching platform designed to elevate physician careers. In this episode, Doctor Ranking will share his journey into pediatric cardiology, the challenges he faces in the field, and his innovative approach to preventing physician burnouthen. We'll also dive into his strategies for maintaining work life harmony and fostering a growth mindset in medicine. Join us as we explore these insightful topics with doctor ranking, offering valuable lessons and advice for healthcare professionals at all stages of their career. Well, welcome to the Doc Lounge podcast. We're so excited to have you. Doctor Roentgeng.
[00:01:13] Speaker C: Thank you, Stacey. It's great to be here, and I'm excited to have the opportunity to talk to your audience.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Love that. Well, tell us a little bit more about yourself and why you decided to specialize as a pediatrician and then really a pediatric cardiologist.
[00:01:29] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I grew up in a really big family, so I'm the oldest of seven kids, and I have a feeling that probably that experience just kind of automatically pulled me into pediatrics, to be quite honest. But as a student and as I was going through my training, I don't think that that was at the forefront of my mind.
And I was one of those students that rotated through all of the rotations and everything I rotated through, I thought, oh, I like this. I think this is so cool. I think I could do it. And then I would go to the next block and think, oh, this is great.
And when I hit pediatrics, I think there were two things that stood out for me. The first was the people that I worked with. You know, every specialty kind of has its own vibe, I would say. And I think I just kind of liked the attitude in pediatrics and the environment. And then when I came back to do my advanced, my advanced clerkships in my fourth year of medical school, just really also fell in love with the medicine. I mean, a lot of general pediatrics is preventive healthcare and helping people, helping kids and ensuring that kids have good health, starting out so that they can have good quality of life later on.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: Love that and that's such an inspirational story. I know people are always trying to, you know, once you become a resident, you're trying to figure out, okay, what am I going specialize in? So it's great to hear and get that advice from you.
Now tell me, as. As a pediatric, you know, pediatric cardiologist, what are some of the unique challenges that you faced when you were in that field? I know you're still, you know, you're still practicing. And how did you address that?
[00:03:01] Speaker C: Yeah, so. So I think the transition from pediatrics to pediatric cardiology was really, as I went through residency, I just noticed that I liked taking care of some of the more complex medical problems and actually really liked the ICU environment, but also liked the long term relationship that you can develop in a clinic setting. And pediatric cardiology really kind of married those two things because you can work in the hospital and work in really intense environments. But then in my job in particular, I do fetal echo, and so I'll meet a family when they learn that their baby may have a heart problem, and many times they don't, luckily, but sometimes they do, and then you just really get to know that family really well. And I've been in my current position for 20 years, so there's some kids or young adults now that I've been following for longer, technically, than they've been alive, which is just a great part of my job.
[00:03:50] Speaker B: Oh, wow. That must be fulfilling to then, you know, kind of keep. Keep up with them as they grow older. And I'm sure that's a fulfilling part of being a pediatrician in general, so. Love to hear those stories.
Now, I know you're. I mean, you're really. You're both obviously a practicing physician, and then you also are a business person, and you've developed this developing doctor. Tell us what inspired you to start this and tell us a little bit about the program.
[00:04:22] Speaker C: Yeah. I never, ever thought I would become a business person, and I can tell you that it's been just a period of growth and learning for me. But, you know, I was someone who was fortunate enough to go through medical school and my residency and fellowship, and although there were periods that were hard, I could kind of just plow through. And I know that there were people that struggled at times, but I wasn't one of those people that struggled during my training. And then about halfway through my career, there was just a sudden shift in my working environment. And due to just changes in team dynamics and kind of personnel turnover, I all of a sudden had way more work to do than I had before. And the environment had just changed. So the people that I had relied upon for, you know, support and camaraderie to kind of get through those tough days were no longer there. And I didn't personally recognize how that affected me until someone pulled me aside and said, hey, you are not yourself. I mean, I think you probably need to get help. And then around the same time, we just had a debriefing event for our trainees or our fellows. And during that debriefing event, the person leading the debriefing event said, you know, if you aren't able to sleep and if you're walking into work not wanting to be there and, you know, notice a change in your mood, and that's been present for longer than a few weeks, you know, something. Something needs to change. And for whatever reason, that moment hit me. Hit me like a ton of bricks. And I thought, uh, all right, this must be burnout, right? This is something that. That I need to get taken care of. And so this is a long answer to your question, but as a result of that, I found a coach, and I tried medications, I tried therapy, I tried meditation. And really, the only thing that helped me get through it was the mindset change that I had from coaching. And it was sort of like this aha. Moment that this is something that I can do to help the learners that I work with as well.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: I love that. And burnout is such, you know, it's such an important topic that we have covered here on the Doc Lounge podcast. And so I want to first thank you for the courage to share that story and to share kind of the different stages that you went through. I think that can help a lot of our listeners within our community. So tell us a little bit. I mean, it is a significant challenge in the medical field. Burnout really is a real challenge. Share a little bit about this coaching model, and I know you've even called it your road to resilience. Tell us a little bit more about that.
[00:06:54] Speaker C: Yeah. So I think.
I think the first thing is just to recognize that burnout's a little bit different for everyone.
And one of the difficult things for, I think, physicians going through burnout, and I experienced this as well, was, it feels like a personal failing. Right? So most physicians are just really high achievers. We're performance oriented, and we want to do the best job. And even through our training, you're assessed by your exam scores, you're assessed by the rvus you generate, you're assessed by patient satisfaction, and so you just have this performance, performance metric kind of mindset, and it takes a minute to realize that it really isn't a failing that you're struggling. Right. It's really a result of the system. We work in a. In a job that's really emotionally, spiritually, physically demanding. We work in a healthcare system that's doing the best job that it can, but it's got its struggles, and it can be hard to be a provider in a system that has growing pains.
And I think the first part in my coaching program is just to recognize, like, hey, this is not your fault.
We have this job that is really difficult for lots of reasons that we can't control. But the good news is that you actually have a lot of control how you respond within the system, and it's figuring out what it is that's going on in your current environment or job or life circumstances that really kind of trigger this episode of Burnouth. So the first thing is just to identify what's going on, and then the next step is to really just act. And so once you identify what's going on, why is that a problem for you and maybe not the person sitting next to you in the office? Like, what is it about your strengths, your values that you bring to the job that maybe causes you to struggle in this environment? And then we just do a lot of work to generate the skills and develop the skills that are needed to thrive in healthcare. And I think appropriate for your organization. There may be some people who are in a full time clinical job, and maybe that's just not the right job for them. Maybe shifting to locums would be a better option for them or shifting to part time work or administrative work. And so part of the process is really just exploring what they want and what's right for them and then taking action to make that happen.
[00:09:03] Speaker B: That's really interesting to hear you say. Really, it is about kind of tapping into your strengths and what, you know, what makes you that, like, you're saying that really successful position and then realizing that there is a control element that you can control.
And I think that makes a lot of a sense to kind of be able to not go into that stage of burnout.
I believe in your coaching. Obviously, this work life balance enigmas out there. How do you guide physicians and help them achieve that work life harmony?
[00:09:39] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I love that you use the word harmony there, too, because the idea that we can achieve balance really is, it's unattainable. Right. And so really, you just have to try to integrate your work life and your home life or your personal life. And they're going to be some days where work's going to have to take priority for whatever reason. And there are some days when family has to take priority. And I think the hardest thing for many physicians is to recognize that it's okay to not make work the number one priority all the time.
And sometimes it's just something as simple as putting an event on the calendar that has nothing to do with work. Right. We all walk around with these phones.
My clinical schedule takes up my entire calendar, and it wasn't until I just started scheduling, all right, I've got a date night tonight, or my niece has a soccer game on this, this Friday at 06:00 I need to get to that. And so it wasn't until I started putting those things on my calendar that I sort of gave myself permission to say, hey, I don't need to schedule a patient at this time, or I don't need to say, incomplete charts. This is just as important as the patient who scheduled at another time.
[00:10:43] Speaker B: That's great advice, and sometimes that's harder to do. You know, once you take that first step and make that first, you know, appointment on your calendar, I'm assuming then you'll kind of see that snowball effect.
[00:10:57] Speaker C: Yeah, that's exactly right. So guilt is a huge part of burnout, and I think a huge reason that some physicians struggle is that we just have this innate calling and sometimes external pressure to always put the patient first. And if you don't, you feel like you're doing something wrong and there's some guilt associated with that. Right. But the first time you do it and you say no, like, hey, I'm not adding on a patient at 05:00 I'm actually going to go and go to dinner with my significant other. You realize that no one actually cares. And some people may actually be like, hey, good job for sticking up for yourself and for putting that on the calendar and doing what's right for you.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: Great advice. Hopefully our audience will listen and have that resonate with them. I think that's awesome. Awesome advice. Now tell us a little bit about this idea around really what you have said. There is an importance of having a growth mindset in medicine. Tell us a little bit about how you coach physicians around this mindset and how to cultivate this.
[00:12:01] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's really hard for some people to one, accept the idea of a growth mindset and recognize that maybe there's something about just the way that they think.
And by changing how they think that can make such a big difference.
As I kind of mentioned earlier, we all got into medical school and got the residencies that we wanted and got our jobs because we performed well. So people with the highest grades get into medical school, people with the best test scores get the most competitive residencies, you know, and people who generate the most rvus get paid more in general. And so that is just a performance mindset that makes it think like that achievement is more important than the journey that you did to achieve whatever it is that you achieved. And the reality is people then walk away from situations.
If you take a test and you get 99 questions right and you miss one, everyone remembers the one question that they missed, not the 99 that you got right.
And so in healthcare, we have this need to be perfect, and there's an expectation for perfect, but the reality is that we can't be and that there are always things that we can do better. And that's true. Even in a patient care situation where everything went well, the next time you see that patient, you could still probably do something better.
So sometimes it's not the outcome, it's how you achieved the outcome. And shifting the focus to sort of the process as opposed to the outcome is just so important.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: That makes a lot of sense. And obviously, like you're saying, these physicians are very high performing individuals, so just knowing that and kind of having that balance is important.
I'm assuming a lot of this also comes to play about their daily job satisfaction and how they feel like they're performing and just their overall satisfaction with being in the role.
Tell us some examples of small changes that can lead to really big impacts on a physician's daily professional experience that you've seen or recommend in your coaching.
[00:14:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
One thing that I think is huge is most physicians I know eat lunch in front of their computer, or they don't eat lunch and all, and maybe grab a snack between patients. And so I think that is a choice. Right. And so at the end of the day, you're hungry, you're hangry, probably, and upset that you didn't get a little break, and it's possible to work a little break in there. So I think one easy daily choice is just to make time for yourself in the middle of the day, even if it's just 15 minutes where you're away from the computer and outside of the clinical setting, makes a big difference.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: Great tip. Sometimes you just need that break to kind of get reset and get back into it.
And I'm assuming, you know, one of the things that you also recommend is just mentorship. Obviously, that's a big part of, you know, medical training and being a physician. And obviously, when you're, you know, resident picking your specialty, obviously you've been a very big mentor. So tell us from your extensive experience as a mentor, what kind of core principles do you believe are essential for guiding this next generation of doctors out there?
[00:15:23] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question, and I think maybe I'll start with a story about an episode of bad mentorship that I experienced. And so when I was early in my career, we had this really well known pediatric cardiologist come to our division, and he was a division head and he had published books, and everyone knew who this guy was. And I was so excited to meet him, and I was really struggling to find my academic niche. And so I sat down with him and said, hey, what's your advice on kind of building my academic niche to someone who's just two or three years out of training and without asking me what my interests were or getting to know me at all? His answer was, you need to learn about fluid dynamics and you need to get a degree in fluid dynamics. And, I mean, I kind of paused for a second, but the funny thing was, like, this guy was so influential and he knew so much, and I I actually thought, I need to get a degree in fluid dynamics and how do I do this? I hate physics. I don't like any of the things about fluid dynamics. But he was such an influential person that it convinced me that, oh, maybe this is the path I need to take. Obviously, I didn't take that path, but I think the first thing in being a mentor is recognizing how much power that you have and not taking advantage of that. That's why I the dynamic of coaching more than mentorship. So in mentorship, really, it's the person who's had the experience that shares their experience, and then the person who's being mentored is expected to learn from that experience and sort of model their career after that or model their behavior after that. And in coaching, the power dynamic is shifted, where really it's a person being coached who is leading the session, and it's their interests, you know, their values, their strength that, that guide the coaching session and ultimately guide the outcome of the entire coaching relationship. And so I've tried to take that model into my more traditional mentorship roles to avoid sort of that power dynamic that sometimes isn't helpful for the person being mentored.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Great advice, and I would love to hear from you. Obviously, somebody that is, you know, very established and has had such great success and is balancing both practicing, being a practicing physician and a business person, what would you recommend to our, you know, listeners, especially those maybe early in their career, if they're thinking about a path in medicine or thinking about a path, you know, in pediatrics or pediatrics, pediatric cardiology, what would you recommend to them?
[00:17:56] Speaker C: Yeah, I think the first thing is just to recognize that you belong. Right. So I think one of the biggest barriers for people considering careers in healthcare, whether it's a physician, a therapist or nurse, is sometimes people feel like I'm not smart enough. I don't have the right background or I don't even know where to start. And so I think there's room for everyone in healthcare, and it's just finding the right path for you within healthcare that's important. So recognizing that you belong, I think the next important thing for people that are applying for residencies and medical school or even for jobs, is don't try to fit yourself into a box. So don't try to fit yourself into the role. Make sure you fit the role that fits you right. And so really having a good understanding of what's important to you, what do you value?
What is it that you bring to the table? What are your strengths? What are you naturally good at?
And leading with those two things kind of leads to a path of fulfillment. Right. And so picking a position that you think is right but really doesn't, doesn't fit you is, I think, a big contributor to burnout and job dissatisfaction.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: Now, doctor ranking, tell us more. Obviously, you know, you have set up the developing doctor for listeners that want to take the next step or get more information and learn more. How can they do that? And tell us more about your program in general.
[00:19:27] Speaker C: Yeah, so I've got a coaching program where we sit down and kind of talk about kind of what it is that the physician needs or the client needs and just honestly just have an exploratory conversation to see is coaching right for you? Am I the right coach for them? And then we kind of chart a path forward if things look like they work. And so the first step that they can take is just to book a free coaching consultation. It's on my website, the developingdoctor.com dot. There's a chance to book a free consultation, and so I welcome anyone to do that. I'd love to hear from people.
The next option that I have is actually, I developed an online course. And so one of the biggest barriers for coaching is that it does take a little bit of time. And for physicians, time is money and time is limited. And if you spend time coaching, you're taking that time away from someone else. And so there's an online course that people can take that is self paced. You can get CME credit for it.
And so there are a couple options that people can take advantage of.
[00:20:24] Speaker B: I love that. And your coaching really can guide people to all stages of their career, help them with work life balance and burnout. What other things do you typically dive into when you're working directly with a physician?
[00:20:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I think the big thing is medical training teaches us how to be great physicians, and we learn how to take care of people. But there are frequently a group of skills that physicians are just lacking because we don't need them when we're students or even when we're. When we're residents and fellows. But somehow then when you're a physician and you're the attending or you're the. You're the staff doctor and you walk in the room, you are the de facto leader. And it's not even that you're in a leadership position, but ultimately, all decisions funnel to you, and sometimes that can be really stressful for people.
The other thing is recognizing that how you communicate is important.
And so learning the effective communication skills to lead a team when things are going well and also to communicate effectively when things aren't going well. And I think the third piece is just how to read a room. And so it's essentially emotional intelligence. Right. But I think that's a skill that sometimes as a student, the emotional intelligence you need to function in the system is very different than when you're leading the team. And so developing those skills that sometimes are lacking in positions is really a big part of the coaching process. Process.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: All of those sound like such, you know, such valuable tools that you can help, you know, really provide to anyone that's working with you. And I love the idea around the online class so that people can do that, you know, at their own pace, because obviously we know how busy our physician audience is. So love all of those, you know, tips that you shared today with us on the podcast. This is such an important topic, and we are very honored that you joined us today. So I wanted to thank you, doctor reinking, and really appreciate your time.
[00:22:18] Speaker C: Thank you so much, Stacey. It was great to be here.
[00:22:21] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:22:22] Speaker A: Thank you to all of our listeners. If you would like to be notified when new episodes air, make sure to hit that subscribe button. And a big thank you to Pacific companies. Without you guys, this podcast would not be possible. If you would like to be a guest, please go to www. Dot pacificcourse companies.com. thank you.
[00:22:46] Speaker C: You our.
